File :-(, x, )
Leica S2 - What ponpo !tC/hi58lI.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/22/leica-debuts-s-system-37-megapixel-flagship-s2-camera/

>"Leica's David Bell is claiming that the company's latest launch, the S2, is nothing short of "the best professional camera system in the world".

This camera packs in a whooping 37-megapixel sensor so essentially combines "the quality of medium format and the handling and flexibility of 35mm".

Leica seems to be super confident this model will deliver and has thrown down the gauntlet to Hasselblad declaring that the S2 is "twice as fast as Hasselblad H-series cameras".

But will it have a DSLR or medium format camera price? We'll keep you posted when we have more details.
EXIF data available. Clickhereto show/hide.
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>> ponpo !tC/hi58lI.
Also apparently some specs

30x45mm sensor
37 million pixels
3 inch LCD
Weather seals
9 new Leica Lenses
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>But will it have a DSLR or medium format camera price?
Well, Leica's known for making sure that their costs are as reasonable as possible, so this should be pretty affordable.
>> ponpo !tC/hi58lI.
>>260103

Haha. Well, at least it's targeting a demographic who isn't as picky about price, but yeah we'll see.
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>260105
Also, I think it's awesome that Leica's coming out with a new lens mount. The three they currently support just aren't enough.
>> ponpo !tC/hi58lI.
     File :-(, x)
Mag scan. Man it's ugly.
>> Anonymous
Dual shutter? Fuck yeah! : D
>> FrtFlks !!Ez7/DaRmPG+
To be honest Leica should stick to making a proper digital M.
>> Anonymous
this says two things to me:
"oh hi, this is why our M8 sucks, because we were preoccupied with this potential WIN camera."
or
"oh hi, this camera's sensor will be as underwhelming as the M8s but we will still market it as the greatest sensor in the world and charge accordingly."

I can't decide which is actually going on here.
>> Anonymous
But does it take video?
>> Anonymous
I had a feeling from some of their coy hints they were going to make a larger sensor camera, and it seems like an awesome camera, but I'm disappointed. They've abandoned the whole Barnack ethos of the company- "small negative, big pictures." It would be best if Leica could've stuck to its roots and someone else made this camera. Oh well, they can use a runaway hit product, which unless the price is something crazy (for medium format digital) this probably will be.

Two minor quibbles:

- Autofocus? Hopefully they didn't shit up the finder for manual focus.

- A 70mm normal (56mm equivalent, according to this http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm) is too long.
>> Serenar !m827jEgWi.
>>260133
If it brings in the bucks for future M development I'm sold. The whole small camera thing was given up with the development of the R anyways.

Also who gives a shit what the normal length is? These are going to be studio cameras anyways, and a little extra tightness can be controlled and dealt with.
>> Anonymous
>>260135
>If it brings in the bucks for future M development I'm sold.
Yeah, I agree, it's still disappointing the Ms aren't self-sustaining and Leica's having to do this (or those stupid special collectors' Ms, or etc. etc.) to keep going.

>Also who gives a shit what the normal length is?

You don't have a preference for what focal lengths you like? Not that I'll ever own one, but if I did, I definitely wouldn't want something longer than a fifty, and preferably something a little wider.

>These are going to be studio cameras anyways, and a little extra tightness can be controlled and dealt with.

Yeah, in terms of framing, but the same framing looks different at different focal lengths.

Also, weathersealing, autofocus, and smaller than a 1D? They clearly envision some sort of out-of-studio use for this.
>> Anonymous
>>260141
uh
this isn't 135 sonny, this is medium format. Your 50mm focal prime isn't worth shit on MF.
80mm FTW.
>> Anonymous
right so lets say.....$10,000 for the body only?
>> Anonymous
>>260145
I was giving 135 equivalents for the purpose of comparison.
>> Anonymous
>>260149
Really? A digital medium format Leica is going to go for $10,000?
>> Anonymous
ok ok so the m8 is about what $6000 or so and is pretty shit.

i would rather that sensor technology is improved rather than just bumping the size up and up.
>> Anonymous
>>260149
I LOLed heartily.

Please. the M8, a camera which should by all means cost around 1500 at the most is 6000. Going by that metric this will probably be around 60000.

enjoy your year's worth of pay to buy a camera.
>> fence !!POey2hdozCZ
well, shit. this sure has been a surprising couple of weeks in photography.
>> Anonymous
>>260187
Erm yes. It's Photokina. That only happens every two years. You think the manufacturers would leave their announcements to corporate press events and things?
>> fence !!POey2hdozCZ
>>260189

even still, i don't think anyone predicted a medium format for leica.
>> Anonymous
37 MEGAPIXELS!!!!
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>260189
Yeah, but compare it to even Photokina 2006. Nikon releases the D80, Canon releases the Rebel XTi. Both nice cameras, but both clearly incremental upgrades to their predecessors. Pentax dropped the K10D, which again wasn't too groundbreaking. Sigma gave us the SD14 and the sounds of crickets were heard throughout the exhibition hall. Oh, and Leica announced the M8, which was nice, but the RD-1 already popped that proverbial cherry and nobody could afford it anyway.

Compare to this one:
Nikon releases a groundbreaking SLR that people have been waiting for since 2006
Canon releases a groundbreaking SLR that people have been waiting for since 2006
Panasonic and Olympus announce a type of camera that's pretty much unprecedented: The compact, interchangeable-lens, non-rangefinder, non-SLR.
Leica goes the other way and gives us a new medium-format SLR that will actually be usable outside of a studio.
>> Anonymous
Must be a 5 year cycle. 2003/4 was a great year for photography (digital rebel, resolutions up to 4x6 and 5x7 film level, etc), and 2008/9 looks like it'll be shaping up the same way.

I for one welcome our new ah screw it. I actually now want a 5DII and a few of those new panasonic u4/3 cameras too.
>> Anonymous
>>260213


True dat. I think Olympus's Micro Four Thirds offering is going to be more awesome than those, though. I would hold out.
>> Anonymous
What, 35x40mm is med format now?
>> fence !!POey2hdozCZ
>>260247

sure. it's bigger than 35mm.
>> Anonymous
I wouldn't really consider a sensor medium format until it's at least 6x4.5, but I don't think they even made sensors that large for MF backs yet.
>> Anonymous
is this new mount autofocus
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>260255
Phase One P65+ is full 6x4.5 frame. Far as I know, that's the only one.

Medium format pretty much just means "Larger than 35mm, smaller than 4x5in". This is bigger than 36x24mm, so it counts as full frame.
>> ponpo !tC/hi58lI.
     File :-(, x)
Apparently confirmed to have AF lenses and priced at $23,000?

Anyway, some more pictures
http://www.1854.eu/2008/09/leica_s2_13_photos_of_the_new.html

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>> Anonymous
Good night, sweet prince Canon.
>> ponpo !tC/hi58lI.
     File :-(, x)
Some more details for you to pick apart ~

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=816234

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>> Anonymous
>>260338
OMG ONLY ONE POINT AF WTF ITS USELESS I NEED AT LEAST 97-POINT AF.
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>260351
I lol'd
>> Anonymous
I don't see what's so cool about a 30x45mm sensor. Yeah, it's slightly larger than full-frame 35mm, but it's still two times smaller than the smallest MF film - the APS-C of medium format? And given Leica's track record, I wonder how many years it'll take for them to deliver even these 9 lenses, while any 35mm full-frame DSLR is compatible with assloads of glass here and now.
>> Anonymous
So:
Leica R-system
Leica M-system
Leica S-system
Leica for 4/3

Isn't this too much for such a small manufacturer? Or are they going to ditch R and/or 4/3 now?
>> Anonymous
>>260384
Given how much they charge for a lens, I don't think it kills them to maintain lenses for four different systems. And many of them are going to be the same optical formula (maybe even the same elements), just in slightly different housing or mount.
>> Anonymous
>>260397
Umm, this works only if the systems are similar, e.g. like Sigma makes the same lenses for Canon/Nikon/Pentax SLR mounts. But here we have a near-MF SLR, a 35mm SLR, a quarter-frame SLR and a 35mm rangefinder. In fact, I don't know of any current M/R/Four thirds Leica lenses that share the same optics.
>> Anonymous
>>260374
AFAIK, no current digital medium format cameras have 56mm sensors, either.

Also, how do you get 45 being twice as small as 56?

The lenses will probably come right with production cameras- Leica is slow to develop new products, sure, but they got the new Summarit-Ms to dealers and customers fast.

>>260384


>Leica R-system

I don't think Leica puts too much into their R system. (No one else does.) I think it's been years since they've updated it at all, except for the pretty much abortive DMR.

>Leica M-system

Going pretty strong.

>Leica for 4/3

They just design the lenses, and designed the body shell for a rebadged Panasonic which was in many respects a rebadged Olympus. Panasonic does the production.
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>260423
>I don't think Leica puts too much into their R system. (No one else does.) I think it's been years since they've updated it at all, except for the pretty much abortive DMR.
See>>260111. According to the Marketroid, they're still doin' stuff with R. Dunno how much reality that has, but the company line is that it's an active system.
>> Anonymous
>>260294
>.jpg
>750x300
>1.95MB

What the hell is going on here??
>> Anonymous
It costs tens of thousands, so it's pretty irrelevant to me. I'm surprised they'd try to add YET ANOTHER FUCKING LENS MOUNT to their system. Jesus Christ.
>> Anonymous
What I think is interesting is that it is another "non-standard" sensor size with lenses being designed for it.

Where is your "full frame" god now, Canon?

The idea that a sensor has to match the arbitrarily decided upon dimensions of some ancient motion picture derived film is stupid. I praise Leica for doing this.
>> Anonymous
Unlike Canon and Nikon or whoever you guys are only familiar with, yes Leica makes things other than a single type of camera that needs different mounts. Pretty shocking.
>> Anonymous
>>260509
It's still going to suck.
>> Anonymous
hopefully this won't be as big a failure as the m8. anyone talking about this somehow funding the future m series seems mistaken to me. that is not how business works. if this sells well then they will make more of this and pour more funding and profits into it.
>> Anonymous
Leaf shutters in the lenses for high speed synch? Wow. Nice touch.
>> Macheath !8b4g0BkNZg
Which sound barrier does this thing break?
>> Anonymous
>>260551

The quantum barrier, clearly.
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>260509
>Where is your "full frame" god now, Canon?
In the real world, costing an order of magnitude less.
>> Jeremo !iKGMr61IHM
Tell you what, the only interesting thing about this for me is that it does led some more speculation to Nikon's rumoured MX system.

There's obviously no direct relation, but you can see where i'm going with it.
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>260663
>you can see where i'm going with it.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.
>> Anonymous
>>260663
Did you ever end up getting that Mamiya, or did you go for something else?
>> Serenar !m827jEgWi.
>>260512
Perhaps normal companies do that but Leica's been psycho enough to stick with the M well past profitability before.
>> Anonymous
>>260663

yeah but thats not going to be cheap when/if it happens. Not nearly as expensive as leica MF but still far from my reach if i want to do anything other than own a single camera.
>> Anonymous
     File :-(, x)
>>260704
If it's priced at $23,000 like someone ITT said, it's on par with most other digital MF options, and even cheaper than some. Still way too expensive for most anyone on here, but still.

Also, holy fuck the finder's huge.
>> Anonymous
>>260728

the lower end hasselblad systems are 18,000
>> Anonymous
>>260703
that leica doesn't exist anymoer

also, dpreview:
>Leica S2 with 56% larger sensor than full frame

lol, it's fuller than full frame.
>> Anonymous
>>260732

That's as bad as the idiotic "optical sound barrier" line.
>> Jeremo !iKGMr61IHM
>>260739

the term full frame was always fuckin stupid and one the marketing gurus at Canon can pat themselves on the backs for.
>> Anonymous
>>260731
And if I'm not mistaken, this out pixel's those, and it certainly offers a more mobile, versatile platform. $5,000 isn't a huge premium for those things.
>> Anonymous
>>260751
Also QFT. "FX," "DX," "DA," etc. at least aren't blatant market ploys, although I think we should just call all the formats by their longest side or both their dimensions, e.g. "full frame" would simply be "36" or "3624," like with "645" or "67."
>> Anonymous
>>260728
It also looks like it's going to handle like pure shit. Just because they have a very well established look for 35mm, it doesn't mean they should compromise their brand new product's ergonomics, specially when they're charging so much.
>> Anonymous
>>260759
"35mm full frame" isn't a bad term for the format, since it's been called that for ages. I think that calling it "135 format" would be perfectly good, though.

I think it would be great if they could just simplify all the formats, though. Discounting the consumer point-and-shoots with their tiny sensors, I think it could safely be limited to 4/3, Nikon DX (24x16) and full-frame (36x24). Canon's 1.6x is irritating to convert, and there's no need for the 1.3x in the M8 and 1D. Larger formats than that should stick to the existing 120 film sizes since there are lenses designed for those -- if I had it my way I'd make it only 6x6. This 30x45mm crap really isn't that much bigger than a 35mm frame, but is massively more expensive.

It would sure make lens design and selection a hell of a lot easier if we only had those four sensor sizes to deal with. 2x crop, 1.5x crop, no crop and medium format.
>> Anonymous
>>260423
>how do you get 45 being twice as small as 56?

If you don't take this cropping into account, 30x45 is exactly half of 6x4.5 film frame and 1/4 of 6x9 frame.
>> Serenar !m827jEgWi.
>>260865
Wow you're fucking psycho. Why should camera and lens companies limit their options because there are people like you who a) are only familiar with 135 b) are unwilling to learn new things c) can't do mental math for shit?

Where does this leave large format? Why don't you take into account the fact that pros often prefer 645 and 67 to 66? And then I guess all those odd sized MF digital back companies are going to have to fold unless they can put out bigger sensors...

All you have to do is stop reconverting everything to 135 equivalents and you'll find that comprehending crop factor was never a problem in the past, even with dozens of competing formats. Or perhaps people's spatial reasoning has gone to shit in a couple generations, I dunno.
>> Serenar !m827jEgWi.
>>260881
oh god i should stop replying in so much depth to trolls
>> Jeremo
>>260682
>>Did you ever end up getting that Mamiya, or did you go for something else?

haha fuck, dude you brought up a fuckin saga.

Basically i went a little further with advice and got told to wait till Christmas, mainly due to Photokina and the loads of shit that's gonna come out of it.

But fuck has it made decisions for me harder, i have the D300 (remember i was making this decision before any news on release of the D700).

So i think so sell D300 get D700 and worry about Mamiya or Linhof after Photokina...but then fuckin the 5DII is out and now i'm like fuck... do i get the Canon instead?

Without ranting on too much and going off topic, i'm back further than i was since i now have more fuckin choice.

So now it's D700 or 5DII + the Mamiya ZD kit or Linhof Field camera + lens.

FUCCCCK
>> Anonymous
Leica are barely keeping their head above the water. Hopefully this won't be the mistake that finally sinks them.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122152103387739231.html
>> Anonymous
>>261005
I think it's pretty safe to say this is either going to save the company or be that last nail. I think it's going to depend on how well this sells to nontraditional users of digital medium format- I don't think too many studio pros will switch, they're invested in other systems that work fine at ISO 100 for them. They don't need weathersealing or compact bodies or high ISOs.

On the other hand, a photojournalist could actually use this thing. He'd have to be rather well-heeled or rather well-sponsored, but it would be useable camera for that. The weathersealing and smaller size will appeal to landscape photographers working in less than toursity conditions.

Also, why the fuck am I not surprised to hear Steven Lee came from Best Buy? It's like a bad /p/ joke.
>> Anonymous
>>261014

Leica have spent too long selling camera-shaped jewellery for the brainless but wealthy rather than selling cameras as tools. Too many collectors and faboys wanking over their red dots instead of people taking photos.

It used to be a quality tool and now it's a luxury brand instead. That's what has killed it. I've even seen the morons of the DPReview Leica forum defend it as such, happily describing it as this luxury/jewellery item. These are not photographers. These are posers. A far cry from some of the greats who may have used their cameras in the past.

If they can finally sell a well-priced tool that matches market demand then maybe they'll be something other than fanwankery once more.
>> Anonymous
>>261014

pj don't need this and it's not like to be a rapid fps. mf users can get a hasselblad cheaper. this camera looks to be in the same limbo as the m8
>> Anonymous
>>261014

Steven Lee seems to be the only guy that actually tried to save the company. It's Leica's own incompetence that drove themselves into the dirt long before he came along. If the management there didn't hold him back them maybe they'd not be a struggling rich man's novelty toy company today.
>> Anonymous
New footage showing the prototype in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

Looks promising (if I had thirty or forty thousand to spare
>> Anonymous
>>261026
You bastard.
>> Anonymous
>>260101
the sensor size is the biggest joke on Leica customers of them all. Now these guys who have invested a ton money of lenses won't be able to use them on this, so they'll have to start all over again.

I honestly hope Leica goes bankrupt.
>> Anonymous
     File :-(, x)
I wonder why they have named it S2.

The S1 was an epic failure, wasn't it?
>> Anonymous
>>261026

You fucker, only the 2nd time for me.
>> Anonymous
>>260509
You do realize the frame size in 35mm still cameras is completely different from motion cameras?
>> Anonymous
Go hasslebland you fucking faggots.
>> Anonymous
>>".."twice as fast as Hasselblad H-series cameras".

this is hilarious. Looks like the guys at Leica have never seen pros work with a Hasselblad H2 or 3. It ain't fast because you don't work a camera like that fast. Most of the guys I've using those are fashion photographers, and an H3 is way fast enough for that.
>> Anonymous
My two cents - take it as you will.
I think the naysayers are missing the point of this camera. Phase One and Leica now have a tech-sharing and development agreement and this camera is one of the products of that partnership. Look for Leica-designed lenses to go on Phase One bodies too.

The demographic and market for Leica is completely different than that of your typical pro-sumer nikon/canon type. We are up into the digital Hasselblad and Phase One area here. Picture it like this: most people get away with driving a light-duty vehicle. And there are some fantastic ones out there. But some jobs require a heavy duty truck. That's what this is - it is not designed to take into your local coffee shop and snap some candids. It is for *pro* photographers that make a living doing ONLY photography.

In that way I think it will be successful. As for those of us that can't afford it - we can't afford anything in that market anyway so why complain?
>> Anonymous
>>261052
>It ain't fast because you don't work a camera like that fast.
Way to miss Leica's point. The S2 is intended for a different group of photographers; it's basically more like "a slower 5D with a large sensor" than "a faster Hasselblad".
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>261052
Kinda like seeing your first airplane and saying "Pfft. That's stupid. Nobody needs a car like that. It won't even fit on the roads!"
>> heavyweather !4AIf7oXcbA
>>261056
Well it CAN'T.
>> Anonymous
>>261108
Where we're going, we don't need roads.
>> Anonymous
>>260141
>Yeah, I agree, it's still disappointing the Ms aren't self-sustaining and Leica's having to do this (or those stupid special collectors' Ms, or etc. etc.) to keep going.

The M division could easily be self-sustaining by the virtue of economies of scale. If they'd chop the price to $2000 instead of $6000, they'd sell far more than just 3 times as many cameras. A girl I met over the summer was talking about "yeah, I think I want to get a Leica this summer, just like, a cheap digital one, they seem really cool". People like that alone could keep them afloat for a really long time. The problem is that it would alienate the core market of rich faggots who pay $50,000 for a "collector's edition" made of adamantium with siberian tiger leather grip or something.

I have one Leitz (not leica) product, an excellent autofocus enlarger from the 1960s, and I love it. I may buy an M4 some day but frankly the Bessa R2 seems like a better option. Leica quit being good about the time they changed their company's name to Leica.

Oh, and the girl got all mad at me when I told her how much the M8 costs. "oKAY, jeez, you don't have to be all pissy about it! Like I just thought it would be cool! I don't believe you anyway, six thousand dollars and you need to buy the lens separately, that's bullshit!"
>> Anonymous
>>261194
Oh yeah -- and I did point her to the digilux things and so on, but her response was "that doesn't look like a REAL Leica".
Damn hipster fanboys/girls.
>> Serenar !m827jEgWi.
>>261022
Every report has Stephen Lee being a dick who couldn't work with a team properly.
>> Anonymous
Economies of scale? They would lose money at that price point. Let me give you an example: the SL2. With every one sold, even at their high prices, Leica lost money on the SL2. Why? It cost more to develop and build than they could get back in sales. It wouldn't matter if they sold 50,000 M8's at 2,000 dollars... They would lose money at that price.

Companies that manufacture goods like that don't turn as a high a profit per unit as you might think. Take cars - most car companies PROFIT no more than 1,000 per unit sold.

I'm not sure cost per unit on M8 but I bet they can't go under 4,500 without losing money on it.
>> Anonymous
I wonder if this will be as good as it sounds. everything leica since the m6 has been one giant fail.
>> Anonymous
>>261277
The cost per unit of the M8 is high because it's hand-assembled by pureblood Aryan engineers in rural highlands of Germany. To make tens of thousands of cameras, they'd obviously have to switch to automated manufacture; then outsource as much as possible without sacrificing much quality and you've got your M8 at $500 per unit.
>> Anonymous
They tried that - it doesn't work so well. R3 for example or even the R8. I'm not saying they have to be hand-made in Germany. But they do have insane tolerances and QC. Anyway I think that's a whole different topic. Ferrari is just a car yet people are willing to pay astronomical prices for them.
>> Anonymous
>>261348
>They tried that - it doesn't work so well.
Well, Minolta's versions of R3/R4 were rather popular, so I'd say that was a marketing problem; later versions of the R-series were intended for a small group of manualfags from the very beginning.

And your car comparison isn't entirely fair. Ferraris are high-end cars no matter how you look; Leica cameras are high-quality, but ordinary or even obsolete feature-wise. I doubt many people would buy Ferraris if they had 2-liter engines from 1980, manual windows and no air conditioning under all the exterior.