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Canon 17-40 vs. 10-22 Anonymous
Hey /p/, I want a wide to ultra wide lens and I have a 20D.

So it's down to the 17-40 L or the 10-22 which is EF-S mount. They are both at the 700$ mark.

Both are optically good, the L has constant aperture and better build quality, you all know that. The EF-S will be truly ultra wide on a crop but will only ever work on a crop.

My 20D is still working but I don't know if I'll have to money for a 5D.

What do I do?
>> Anonymous
cry.
>> Anonymous
Get the 10-22 if you are sticking with the crop sensor for a while. If you are going to be changing to the 5D in less than a year then go with the 17-40.
>> eku !8cibvLQ11s
Or, get Sigma 12-24mm superdupberwuperultrawide zoom. It's wide with crop, and even wider with full frame. Actually, there isn't any lens wider for full frame.
>> Anonymous
>>105292
I disagree.. too much CA in corners with the Sigma.

Go for the 10-22mm for now unless you'd like to buy a full frame very soon (as mentioned) ..otherwise purchase a nice canon prime wide angle.
17-40L doesn't cut it if you want ultra wide, on full frame.
>> Jeremo !iKGMr61IHM
That white on white combo looks damn fine. I wonder why canon hasn't done more?
>> Anonymous
>>105466

Your obession with white lenses is astounding.
>> Anonymous
>>105466

It's not Canon, it's the consumers that all want black. It looks more "professional". Then they go retarded and want white lenses for that "L" look. Great way to stand out in a crowd and feel self concious.Bah.
>> Anonymous
>>105482

Black plastic = cheaper than colored
>> Anonymous
>>105496

a couple of cents for a whole camera, maybe?
>> Anonymous
>>105496

Silver ones are often CHEAPER than black ones.
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>105517
I think that might just be a supply and demand thing. I.e., more people want the black ones.

(But yeah, I can verify that. I own the silver XTi because it was like $80 cheaper at the time I bought it)
>> Anonymous
>>105496

I meant from the manufacturer. When Canon or whoever buys plastics. Black is cheaper.
>> freak !!BgvYtRzHZrf
>>105482

I don't think the black looks more professional I just think the Silver cameras look goofy as hell
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>105528
Well, I look goofy as hell, so it's only fair that my camera matches.
>> Jeremo !iKGMr61IHM
>>105476

LOL, i get the irony of me being a Nikon shooter.

Though i think there are a few white Nikkors too.

I just the colour combo is refreshing, though it does border ont he danger of having hot neon pink and BAPE camo shit on them.
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
I think they claim that the white lenses are meant to stop the sunlight from heating them up too much compared to the black. That's why they mostly keep it for the larger lenses.
>> Anonymous
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Oh lawd is that some Rambo lenses?
>> Anonymous
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i'm going hunting

Camera-Specific Properties:Equipment MakeCanonCamera ModelCanon EOS 350D DIGITALPhotographerunknownMaximum Lens Aperturef/4.0Maximum Lens Aperturef/4.0Image-Specific Properties:Image Created2006:08:05 22:05:12Exposure Time1/1000 secF-Numberf/4.0Exposure ProgramAperture PriorityISO Speed Rating200Lens Aperturef/4.0Exposure Bias1/3 EVMetering ModePatternFlashNo Flash, CompulsoryFocal Length105.00 mmColor Space InformationsRGBImage Width1483Image Height1097RenderingNormalExposure ModeAutoWhite BalanceAutoScene Capture TypeStandardExposure Time1/1000 secF-Numberf/4.0Exposure ProgramAperture PriorityISO Speed Rating200Shutter Speed1/1000 secLens Aperturef/4.0Exposure Bias1/3 EVMetering ModePatternFlashNo Flash, CompulsoryFocal Length105.00 mmColor Space InformationsRGBImage Width1483Image Height1097RenderingNormalExposure ModeAutoWhite BalanceAutoScene Capture TypeStandard
>> Anonymous
>>105552

You one of these birders then?
>> Anonymous
Well this thread got derailed, huh.
>> else !L6xabslN96
>>105552
why is there a cowbell on it?
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>105769
Presumably because he has a fever, the only prescription to which being more cowbell.
>> Anonymous
IMHO black plastic is preferred because it's more dirt friendly, adding to the "pro-look" of dslrs. Can't imagine using one of those stylish P&S in a unfriendly environment, the black finish adds to the firmness of dslrs in general.
>> Anonymous
Is the 10-22 a good lens for shooting clubs and bars?

I have a Speedlite so lighting isn't a problem.
>> Anonymous
>>105936

Are you sure they don't mind you using the flash? You'll end up with rabbit in the headlights and greasy shiny people for the most part too.
>> Anonymous
>>105939

Bounce flash, diffuser, who shoots the flash straight anyway?
>> Jeremo !iKGMr61IHM
Don't forget to go for slow shutter speeds even with a speedlight. 1/10 to 1/25 will let the ambient lights set in and create mood withour blurring the people if it's on rear curtain too.

Otherwise the cave look is fine too.
>> Anonymous
>>105940

That's not possible in a lot of places due to high or non white ceilings.

Lots of people shoot flash straight on if they know what they are doing or use soft boxes.
>> Jeremo !iKGMr61IHM
>>105956

Diffusers work fine even in places with high ceilings straight flash looks like shit most of the time, especially with people in clubs all dripping with sweat reflecting the light straight back at ya.
>> Anonymous
>>105956

Bounce card?
>> Anonymous
>>105953

Hmm, if you slow it down, wouldn't your subject be blurry too? I don't have Butterfly's kungfu grip. I'm only comfortable up to say 1/40 or 1/50
>> Anonymous
>>105960

What diffuser are you using in a club? Not ideal for bulky equipment. Bounce isn't good if the ceilings are dark or decorated like in churches or other big halls. You can't just rely on bounce to hide your sins like a lazy shit.

Plus, for general photography it has nasty shadow effects of its own at times. Panda eyes and dark chin shadows.
>> Anonymous
>>105961

Only going to work where bounce will work well normally. Like indoor homes with nice white colored and low ceilings. Otherwise it'll be shit. Not good for clubs.
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
Everyone should have a nice wide FFL lens in their collection. Good for indoor stuff. Gets used a lot here and elsewhere for concerts and dim indoor lighting conditions.
>> Jeremo !iKGMr61IHM
>>105972

Either a LSII or a Omnibounce, depending on where i'm shooting.

The Omnibounce does allow the ability to shoot direct as it's not as harsh.

The LSII with the dome acts as a bounce and works well i've found.

>>105965

Not at all, because the intial Flash will freeze motion. As long as you're not doing crazy shit like 1 second it's fine. Try it and you'll see what i mean.
>> Butterfly !xlgRMYva6s
I shoot portraits in clubs with:

11-18 3.5-5.5
0.5"(s)
iso 400
flash pointed straight at or held my my left hand (kungfu grip can be done with my right hand only)
>> Anonymous
>>105978

The omnibounce doesn't help much when you don't have nearby reflective spaces and only a little on shadows. You lose more light with it and work your flash harder too. It's not very good in big spaces or outside. If you're somewhere that bounce wouldn't really work, then chances are that it wouldn't help much either. Flash with or without the omnibounce will look crappy if you've got it mounted on the camera and you turn it to a portrait view. Horrible.

Using the LSII in a club is insane. Overworking and straining the flash, draining batteries faster and wasting light as you light up all around you. It's also bulky, heavy and awkward. A very bad choice.

Get a prime like the Sigma 30mm f/1.4.
>> Jeremo !iKGMr61IHM
>>105983

Mate, you seriously have no idea what you're talking about. That entire paragraph is made of fail and Ken Rockwell.

>>Overworking and straining the flash

What are you on about? Guess i shouldn't take any photos either since i'd be overworking and straining it.

Unless of course you're trolling, then congrats. you got me.
>> Anonymous
>>105978Not at all, because the intial Flash will freeze motion. As long as you're not doing crazy shit like 1 second it's fine. Try it and you'll see what i mean.

How do I do that on a Canon and Speedlite? I know you're a Nikonfag so maybe someone else can tell me?
>> Anonymous
>>105983bulky, heavy and awkward

Dude, it's a plastic cup over the flash.
>> Butterfly !xlgRMYva6s
>>105991
put the flash on the camera, turn both on and press the shutter.
>> heavyweather !4AIf7oXcbA
>>105987
He just means that instead of shooting at 1/16th power or 1/8th power strobes, you'll be shooting with 1/2 or full power flashes. That drains the battery faster and you'll get off fewer shots. It's a valid concern. You've got to weigh that against the quality of the shot. If you think the Fongitude helps your shots, do it. If not, don't.
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
I know some people that have killed their hotshoe flash permanently by over working it using these LSII or it turned up full too much. It's not as hard to do as I expected before I read up on it. The manual for your flash model tells you how long a cool off you should have after certain numbers of flashes at certain powers, I think.

The higher end flashes are more resistant, but they'll all go eventually if you hammer the flash at full power all night without thinking. Using the LSII tends to cause it to be going at full power as you're lighting up a big room for every shot. Batteries will drain fast too, so you'll need far more spare packs, but killing the flash is worse.

You don't need to panic or treat it like a delicate flower, but have an idea of what the limits are so you don't abuse it or push it too far (I can imagine it is easy done on a long night). They are not invincible.
>> Anonymous
>>105991How do I do that on a Canon and Speedlite? I know you're a Nikonfag so maybe someone else can tell me?

Anyone? ;_;
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
>>106009

It doesn't matter what brand you are using, it's the same principles. Read your manual for instructions on your model! Use second curtain sync for movement where blur will show. It tends to look nicer.
>> Jeremo !iKGMr61IHM
>>106000

Valid point? I'm surprised you found one in that convulated paragraph.

The world won't end is the batteries are drained.

I've got one word that all photographers know, SPARES.

I carry a spare camera battery and two sets of AA sfor the flash gun(s).

One full charge on 4 AAs equal to about 155 FULL power flashes. Yes, i actually waited and counted. I was sick in bed that day. Since i rarely ever use 1/1 power all the time it's a moot point. I don't think i've ever changed AA batteries before i changed CF card.

>>106005

Whilst i agree to an extent, on a practical side ... it's simply not necessary. The SB-600 and Sb-800 i have are work horses and are fine... this talk of full power all the time is pointless too... the SB-600 takes a full 7 seconds between each cycle and the 800 with a 5th battery, 4.

No one would shoot continuously on full power to an extent it would blow the bulb.

From a user of the LSII i simply dont understand what this concern is on about. As i've mentioned, ive shot with it extensively indoors gotten great results and not a problem at all. It's usually on manual or iTTL, ITTL rarely EVER fires the strobes at full strength, unless it's a crowd shot.

>>105991

Yeah, what butterfly said. There isn't much you can do on a Nikon that you can't do on a Canon, and vicer-versa. The only one that jumps to mind is Wireless flash via CLS.
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
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>>106009
See>>105997

>>106005
Truth. Pic related. Note the melted plastic.

(Wasn't me who melted it)

Camera-Specific Properties:Equipment MakeCanonCamera ModelCanon EOS DIGITAL REBEL XTiFirmware VersionFirmware 1.1.1Owner NameunknownSerial Number0420104373Lens Size18.00 - 55.00 mmImage-Specific Properties:Image OrientationTop, Left-HandImage Created2007:12:29 19:48:19Exposure Time1/10 secF-Numberf/5.6Exposure ProgramAperture PriorityISO Speed Rating1600Lens Aperturef/5.6Exposure Bias0 EVFlashNo Flash, CompulsoryFocal Length51.00 mmColor Space InformationsRGBImage Width3888Image Height2592RenderingNormalExposure ModeAutoScene Capture TypeStandardCamera Actuations-251461440Color Matrix129Color Temperature5200 KExposure ModeAv-PriorityFocus TypeAutoMetering ModeCenter-WeightedSharpnessUnknownSaturationNormalContrastNormalShooting ModeManualImage SizeUnknownFocus ModeOne-ShotDrive ModeSingleFlash ModeOffCompression SettingUnknownMacro ModeNormalSubject Distance0.270 mWhite BalanceAutoExposure Compensation3Sensor ISO Speed288
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
>>106011No one would shoot continuously on full power to an extent it would blow the bulb.

Oh yes they would! :D
>> Jeremo !iKGMr61IHM
>>106013
Wait...

Are those Canon speedlights though? I've heard alot of gripe about them.

>>106012

That's a Canon right?
>> Butterfly !xlgRMYva6s
When im doing crowd shots i shoot at 1/8 or 1/16th power and ill do 300-500 in a single night, generally takes 1set of 4xAAs. Never had any heat from the flash but it takes 3-hrs to do.
>> Anonymous
ac, since you're here. Do I set second curtain sync on the Speedlite? The thing with 3 triangles >>>.

I've tried it but it doesn't seem like my flash fires a preflash.
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
Longest night I've done is about 10 hours. Shooting at 1/8 and lower means nice fast cycling and little heat to worry about. If you cover your hand over the flash and fire it at full power you can really feel the heat. It's brief but impressive.

>>106020

Yes, the button with the three triangles until that >>> symbol appears on the display is the second curtain option.
>> Anonymous
>>106022

Okay, I know I ask a lot of shit but /p/ can be very helpful sometimes.

Two more things I want to know, is there a difference if I set it in my cameras custom function?

And just to make sure I understand it. If I put a slower shutter speed like 1/10 with second curtain sync on, the Speedlite fires a preflash that freezes your subject, then your slow shutter absorbs the background light and the final flash is fired at the end? Is that right?
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
Off the topic thread but it seems that the EF-S 10-22 can be modified to work as a 12-22 on a 5D. Sounds interesting. I'm waiting to see some pics of this operation and some samples. I've heard of people getting the 60mm macro to work fine too. I have to admire these brave tinkering photographers.

More random: http://www.camerapedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

That's a handy place for basic info, even though wiki's are obviously communist evil.
>> Anonymous
One gripe I have with the 580EX II is that there is no audible sound to tell you the flash is ready. I have to look at the pilot light.
>> Butterfly !xlgRMYva6s
>>106033
what noise when the flash is ready, i dont have one of those. Generally when its stopped whining its good to go and if you cant hear that then dont use continious...
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>106018
Nope. Random crappy third-party flash.

>>106027
No, the preflash is just so the camera can figure out how to properly meter the background and flash exposure. It happens before the shutter opens.
>> Anonymous
>>106035

That's what I mean, when the whine stops = flash ready.

The 580EX II is silent. There is no whine ever.
>> Jeremo !iKGMr61IHM
>>106027

Yaaar matey.

>>106033

Sometimes i hate the SB-600 and SB-800 when it does that... but only ever in wireless modes... which is sht when you're trying to shoot a speech where everyone is silent and your flash beeps every few seconds. Loudly.
>> Butterfly !xlgRMYva6s
>>106038
Well then you have to engage brain and count before each shot.

You generally should be using your brain while taking photos so this shouldnt be TOO hard.
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
>>106027

The only difference between first and second curtain is one fires at the start and the other fires at the end of the exposure.

As far as how it will look in the end result: if you've a moving subject and a slow enough shutter speed you'll see trails leading in front of the direction of movement if you are using normal first curtain flash and if you are using second curtain you'll see the trails behind the path of movement.

If you set "slow sync" then it will tell it to have a long shutter speed and also fire the flash. It can be used to stop the "subject in a cave" look you can get with flash and dim background lighting.

I've seen some people use "slow sync" and "rear/second curtain" interchangeably but they are not the same thing.
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
First thing I always do with my camera is turn off any beeps and annoying sounds. I would rather it silent. For events, street photography or nature (and some other situations, probably) it is much nicer to have quiet gear.
>> Anonymous
>>106046

So yeah, I don't think there's slow sync on the Speedlite or the camera.
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
>>106052

The night portrait mode essentially is doing the same thing. I'd encourage people to use more manual control and set the shutter speed themselves, especially if they are of a mind to experiment.
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/
>> Anonymous
>>106056

I 'am' using M, 1/10 at 4.0 and ISO 400. Speedlite is set to ETTL with -1 FEC and second curtain sync.

But you just told me second/rear curtain isn't the same as slow sync.
>> Jeremo !iKGMr61IHM
>>106056

Yeah, manual control and A or S.

I remember a friend trying to impress me with his 400D and tell me how his 18-55mm kit lens was awesome for macro... all he needed to do was put the camera into 'Macro' mode...

... I didn't have the heart to break him down.
>> ac !!VPzQAxYPAMA
>>106051
I always do that too. My girlfriend, familiar with that habit of mine, expressed shock shortly after I'd gotten my XTi that I hadn't turned off the shutter noise...
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
>>106062

That's nice. What about it?
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
>>106063

I suppose seeing as he was happy with it then for him that was all he'll ever need so no harm in leaving him be?

>>106068

Hah! I wish I could turn off the shutter noise on mine too. Would be quite a feature. ;)

At least the cameras seem to be getting quieter. I hear that the 40D is a lot quieter than the older models.
>> Anonymous !SDPEsPMnww
>>106091I hear that the 40D is a lot quieter than the older models.

It is. I played around with one in an electronics store here, and the 40D was pretty quiet.
>> Anonymous
>>106087

What about it? You still haven't explained the difference between slow sync and second curtain?
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
>>106111

Yes I did. They are two different things. I described what happened with these things and also provided links for anyone interested in reading up more on their own time. Read your manuals for the rest.
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
>>106124

Because I've got nothing better to do than protect you from the evil that is Google and support your astonishing laziness, here is another link:

http://digital-photography-school.com/blog/slow-sync-flash/

That should clear it up for you, I hope. ;)

You can see it's two different things there. Some nice images to get you started on some ideas to try with it too. Please read your manual though. It's not something people say just to be rude, it is really helpful.
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
Seeing as I'm putting random links in here already: http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3336&navigator=6

A 4.5mm 2.8 circular fisheye lens from Sigma. I can't find any samples so far. I had hoped to see some. I doubt I'd have a great deal of use for it, but it sounds interesting. Especially so as it's going to give a truly circular image on a APS-C sized sensor. Usually using a circular fish eye lens (suited for larger formats) on these cameras means the fisheye effect is reduced due to the cropping and you don't get a circular image. Nice to see Sigma fleshing out the options on APS-C formats with these more exotic lenses.
>> Anonymous
>>106046If you set "slow sync"

I do read my manuals but there is no mention of 'slow sync' ever.

The >>> is for second curtain, that's fine. You told me 'slow sync' is different.

Still don't know how to set 'slow sync'.
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
>>106150

Read the link I just gave. I'm not going to write it all it out for you again and again. It's all there, very clearly written for anyone to get started on experiments.

If you can set the flash and shutter speeds manually it shouldn't be beyond your capabilities.
>> Anonymous
"Slow Sync Flash is a function found on many cameras that tells your camera to shoot with both a longer shutter speed as well as firing the flash."

" Some cameras allow you to access slow sync flash manually and set exposure length and flash strength"

When I said "I 'am' using M, 1/10 at 4.0 and ISO 400. Speedlite is set to ETTL with -1 FEC and second curtain sync."

Is that slow sync or not?
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
>>106163

Yes, that is the same thing. Like I mentioned and the links explain, slow sync effect is a slow shutter speed + firing the flash and you've got it nailed. That's all that is needed. Nothing much once you hear it. You can add second/first curtain variation within that too and I prefer second curtain, but all that is needed is the slow shutter and flash. The fine details on the shutter speed and flash exposure are adjusted for the conditions and your desired result. I hope that you can see there that second curtain and slow sync are different things too.

Some cameras/flash set ups have "slow" or "slow sync" or whatever they've named it as a specific option, some have it as part of the scene modes under other names (like "Night" with Canon), and so on (so many variations with all those different models and brands!) and you can get it just by setting flash and shutter speed manually. There's a few ways of getting the same effect. As always the manual method offers the greatest control and of course once you can do it manually you can then do it on any camera with manual controls. I've heard of some using the "priority" modes for it on their cameras just fine though. Whatever suits you best. You'll see some people talk about "dragging" the shutter in photography too. This technique will be what they are talking about. It's all the same basic idea of slow shutter + flash. Names in photography are always a pest.

Not all set ups have the option of it, but if they did I'd stick with the second curtain for the most part with obvious movement and trails, but you might produce nice effects in a shot by not using it. Up to you and your experiments.

You'll obviously not have any trouble as you can work the setting on the flash and camera. Using scene modes and stuff is more for those who don't want to or can't use these things, I feel.

If you get any cool shots, feel free to post them up.
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
>>106171

Some more nice examples (labelled DRAGGING and with a more stationary subject). http://planetneil.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/3-dragging-the-shutter/

You can see that it can look much nicer than the "cave" look for some shots. He's also got a nice example of zooming while doing the long exposure for another effect on top of it. Lots to try out. :)
>> Anonymous
>>106173

Dragging the shutter = slow sync?
>> Blackadder !!bSWRwu/NqzQ
>>106176

Yeah, it's all the same sort of thing and results. Just more names to bog down the real work of getting photos.

You'll see in his "dragging" settings that it is still basically a comparatively slow shutter and the flash.