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Anonymous
So /fit/,

I started weight training about 8 months ago as a skinny distance runner (6'2 165) in an effort to pack on some muscle mass. I made some decent gains adding 120 to my dead lift and 60 to my flat bench, sure I'll take it. I ate a shit ton every day and went through a ton of whey protein I now weigh 205. However, I still feel skinny and my muscle gains just seem non-existent.

My arms are just as skinny as they were 40 pounds ago, my chest just got a little bigger and flabbier, my legs still seem the same size.
I've been doing mostly heavy ass weights with low reps, and now I've seem to hit a plateau since I don't get sore at all after a workout where I've upped the weight. My only guess would be that my fat gains are covering up any results, but still, what the hell.
>> Anonymous
Eating a shit ton? That doesn't tell me alot, but i'll tell you that eating the right foods at the right times, are your best bet for gaining good mass.
Also low reps and heavy ass weights are for power lifters. That style of lifting builds power strength, and muscle density and power.
If you want to build for size you have to do almost everything for a set of 8-12.
Any other questions anon?
>> Anonymous
>>7726
You shouldn't base the effectiveness of program based on how sore it makes you. You should be basing it off how much you can lift. Only eight months in you should reset your lifts and keep eating more and getting stronger until you can't, then switch to a volume routine like the guy below you said. You'll have to lower the intensity (weight) and add more volume (reps) to achieve muscular growth. However, the more strength you have before you start the volume routine, the more weight you'll be able to lift at higher reps.

Keep alternating every several months between strength and volume. Sort of like a yin-yang.
>> Anonymous
OP: I hear a lot about 8+ reps build muscle, and 5- for strength, but I just don't buy into it, If you wanted your muscle to grow wouldn't they need increasingly heavier weights every workout? Whats the evidence that more reps build size better?
>> Anonymous
>>7771
It's simply the way your body reacts to the different forms of exercise. Muscle density and muscle size are two very different things - you can be very strong without having hulking muscles, if your tissue is packed very densely.
>> Anonymous
>>7771
Massive studies, and the actual science of how muscles function.

When you lift an 8+ rep set, your muscles are probably utilizing about 30% of the fibers for the lifts. This is a normal amount of power that people can typically produce. When you lift 8+ rep sets for a long time, you increase the bulk of the muscle allowing you to lift more, but you still lift using ~30% of the fibers.

High weight training (eg 3 rep sets) puts a severe power load on your muscles, which gradually trains them to activate more of the fibers for each lift. After training on such a program, you may be activating 40% or 45% of fibers for lifting, because that's what you've trained to do.

I recently read a study on this from a Gymnastics organization, which provided some test results over a long period for such workouts. The group which did 8+ reps showed a larger increase in muscle mass, but with a lower % gain in power (muscle mass / maximum lift). The group which trained in low rep sets show a lower increase in muscle mass (though still a notable amount), but also a notably higher increase in power.

This is the source: http://www.usa-gymnastics.org/publications/technique/1996/8/strength-training.html
>> Anonymous
7744 here:
Look at Olympic lifters, strong men competitors, and competitive power lifters. They build for one thing and thats power. They are big don't get me wrong. And the reason is because their rep range is 8 to 2 or 1. Body builders, and people building for size all use a reprange of 8-12. And they train to failure.
Try ending every exercise with a set of 10, the last 1 or 2 should be almost impossible. Or you should need a spotter. Pretty soon(2-4 weeks) those last 2 reps will be easy, and when they are just doable, add another 2 1/2 to 10 pounds to the exercise.
Keep at it bro!
>> Anonymous
7744 here again:
Listen to 7790, thats my point exactly.
>> Anonymous
>>7771
Peer-reviewed journals? Higher reps progressively break-down more muscle tissue in the form of micro-trauma. To be able to lift a heavy enough weight for a high amount reps, and to cause enough micro-trauma to the muscle fibers, he needs to be strong enough. On the other hand, strength mainly comes in the form Central Nervous System adaptation which is facilitated in 1-3 repetition range.

But I'm the same boat as you, he should keep at the high intensity, low volume for as long as possible until he can't (and even then I would suggest an intermediate low-volume 5x5 program). If the problem is getting too fat he needs to adjust his diet according.
>> Anonymous
>>7798
And to expand on this:
This why why when you see someone with smaller muscles who is actually stronger than someone which bigger muscles. Strength is purely about your CNS, and it's adaptation, not the size of your muscles. That's all strength is; the "coordination" of the CNS, and the muscles it controls.
>> Anonymous
And further more, since most programs call for at least 5 reps, you will genrally get the benefit of both worlds.
>> Anonymous
>>7790
OP: Interesting read, I'm liking these responses.

What are your thoughts on workouts such as Max-OT and Waterbury's program http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459341

They are praised as excellent muscle building routines, yet maintain the principle for heavier weights.
>> Anonymous
As someone who first started lifting like 8 years ago, and has lifted at a high level consistently for 3 years, I can tell you my experiences. I also have trained several people, though I've let my AFPA expire after getting a different job.

Very few people have a need or will see great results from low reps. The problem out there is that everyone reads these magazines that have been around for 30 years and they need to publish new articles. So they start talking about advanced techniques, advanced training methods, etc etc, all this stuff that is great for people who have been lifting for years, but isn't necessary at all for beginners.

Most people will benefit most overall, from 8-12 reps. I always tell people 10 reps. Do 3 sets of 10 reps and when you can complete 3 sets of 10 reps, increase the weight by 5-10lbs and keep going from there. That's how I was trained years ago and thats how I train. Works for me, works for everyone I know.

One guy went off of the plan and started doing 3 sets of 6-8 and gained nothing. If anything, he started regressing. Just my experience though, there may be a few beginners out there who really explode using low reps.
>> Anonymous
>>7858
That looks about as bloated and "complicated" as traditional BB routine I've ever seen.

If you want real "Anti-Establishment" programs that people have been doing for decades, try:

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/index.htm
>> Anonymous
7744 here again
On a personal note: I started weight lifting about a 14 months ago, at which time I started off with a buddy doing body building routines. It' was nice and I enjoyed it, but I was changed slightly by watching power lifters. So I for the past 12 months I have been training as a power lifter. I really don't want to be muscularly huge, I just want to be strong and healthy. My starting bench was 205lb, squat 275 lb, dead lift 315lb, and clean 155 lb(that was after 2-3 months of body building style training.) Now after about a year I bench 365, deadlift 545, squat 495, and clean 255. I would say thats pretty good for one year, and my mucles aren't tremendously huge. I'm just powerful. But if you want size, you gotta train for size. Keep at it!
>> Anonymous
Every bit of this is ancedotal, and shouldn't be a basis for which to train beginners. It's great that it worked for you or your buddy (and you should always do what works for you), but you have to admit that sample size is pretty small and uncontrolled. A simple 5x5, or 3x5 such a "starting strength" that includes basic lifts, is widely considered to superior for beginners, and has been used on several thousand athlete's over several decades and produced amazing results for the majority of them. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel on this type of thing.
>> Anonymous
>>7919is in reference to>>7879
>> Anonymous
You need a regular increase in weight progression to build muscle. IMO, 4x8 is the ideal count for building muscle.

>>7790<-- TRUTH!