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Harness-Training Anonymous
Alright, so I'm starting to be a dog trainer with my aunt and uncle. We don't do treat training and rarely use the clicker method. We use more dog behavior and corrections with prong collars and what not. Very similar to what that Ceaser guy does.

From my perspective, what to me seems to be an outbreak in the selling of dog harnesses, is retarded. A harness is for making it easier on the dog to pull something. Which seems to translate into pulling the owner.

So instead of having a dog choking and straining on his collar, they instead just strain and are more easily able to pull you while walking, running, etc. And this seems to be, well, just dumb and counter productive to teaching a dog to behave well.

So, well, the question is why? Why do people buy these stupid things?
>> Anonymous
bump.
>> Anonymous
Harder to slip off then a collar ( like for fatass pugs whose necks are as thick as their heads)
for dogs with trachea problems and little shit dogs that are to fragile to get pulled around by their necks?
>> Anonymous
Well, I had a huge Boxer mix that pulled non-stop and it made it really hard to walk him. He was very well behaved otherwise and we tried our best to train him not to pull, but it never worked. We couldn't afford a trainer.

So to stop him from choking himself to death on his collar, we got a harness... and holy shit, he stopped pulling. He actually listened to us when he was on his leash. I don't know why and I don't know if it would have that effect on most dogs, but I was glad that I got it.
>> Anonymous
The harness like the one in the pic are supposed to put pressure on places that causes discomfort when the dog pulls, which is supposed to encourage it to stop. I think.
>> Anonymous
We used to walk our dogs with choaker chains. Tried harnesses but they only gave them something to brace themselves against so they could pull harder. Then we tried nose halters. As the song goes, "Now I'm a believer!"
>> Anonymous
     File :-(, x)
Harnesses for tiny dogs/ puppies, which can be hurt with collars at normal pressure, are okay (windpipe collapse!). Harnesses for working dogs (seeing eye dogs, sled dogs...) are okay.

Harnesses for all other dogs are a retarded fashion phenomenon bought by lazy people. Teach your dog not to pull on the damn leash, ffs. Helps not to dislocate your shoulder, too.

Also, flexi leashes are generally just as idiotic (there are a few justifiable cases tho). Most people use them because they are tired of following their dogs everywhere, who pull on the leash constantly. It's so easy: Don't follow your dog everywhere. Teach your dog not to pull on the damn leash, ffs.

tl;dr
Teach your dog not to pull on the damn leash, ffs.
>> Anonymous
>>300102
Why don't you offer some training tips for people with this problem? Like I said in my previous post, we tried our best to train him, but he went wild every time we put a leash on him, like there was some invisible rabbit taunting him just out of reach. We put a (regular, not the kind that pull on their breast bone) harness on him and he was fine.

The only reason I can think of that it worked is that it felt more snug and secure and he felt more like we had control of him? I don't know... you tell me, dog expert.

The dog I have now was easily trained not to pull... she did at first, but we simply stopped walking if she pulled, or started going in the opposite direction, and it worked like a charm.

I can't see how it's a fashion/trend thing, anyway... harnesses are hideous.
>> Anonymous
I think it depends on the dog, whether you want to use a harness or not. I have 3 toy dogs and they were guilty of choking themselves when walked on a collar. The harness was better since they can't strangle themselves. It also provides a convenient handle for the times we are camping and let them run around unleashed and need to grab them quick.

OP, can you detail the benefits of choke and prong collars?
>> Anonymous
>>300000
>> Anonymous
My dogs are trained to walk politely on lead using standard training methods. (Carol Lea Benjamin's methods are my favorites.) And they walk more or less properly in town on standard slip collars and six foot leather obedience leads.

But we have harnesses for them, too. Why?

1) Harnesses attach to the seatbelts of the car to restrain the dogs during travel. You can't do that with a collar.

2)We like to walk them in the harnesses in parks, on the beach, and other places where they can be more free to explore and wander around. We usually use longer leads (not retractibles!) with the harnesses, so they can goof off a bit, and we can still "reel them in" if they get into trouble or we want them back close to us for some reason.

I'd never use just a harness with no other leash training, but they certainly have their uses.
>> Anonymous
>>300122
Prong collars, when used correctly, simulate a warning bite that a dog might experience from the alpha in a natural setting (we call it a correction). It doesn't hurt, it doesn't cause mental trauma, its like a slap on the hand and saying" no, don't do that".
Dogs are very black and white. Either something is okay or its not okay. The more you try to give it specifics on when something is okay and when it is not okay, the more confusing it gets.

The proper way to use a prong collar when teaching a dog to walk properly is to always have slack on the leash (this doesn't mean getting an extend leash or running with your dog.). Then whenever the dog runs in front of you or jumps at something you give a quick and short tug on the leash. Enough so that it will sort of jar the dog back into position. Keep a brisk pace and do not allow the dog to stop and sniff things or wander off or get in front of you. If your dog looks like its going to pee or poo, just keep walking. Dogs are not humans and do not need to find a suitable place to poop. (They sometimes even poop while walking) If your dog does start to go to the bathroom. It is okay to stop and let them finish. Just keep doing this. Walks are also a good time to teach your dog to heel. Whenever you get to a cross walk, just stop and say "heel". Then correct them whenever they try to do anything but just sort of relax there (there are some variations and additive commands that can be learned as well, like sit, stay, down.)
>> Anonymous
>>300667
If you are not familiar with prong collars and this style of training and are meek hearted, you should probably have someone with you who is familiar with this method. Heres why.

If you start this with your dog when they are puppy, you will not have any problems that wouldn't also crop up under other styles of training (except in rare cases. My uncle has a doberman he's had since it was a puppy who would be impossible to handle for anyone but a proffessional trainer. It might do better with some clicker training and some agility training, but most likely not much).

However, if you are starting on a dog who has had several years of no training and allowed to walk all over their owner or have been mistreated it will be rough at the start. I'll tell you about my boxer before i started working with my aunt and uncle.

I have boxer who has always been pretty wild. Had her for about 4 years and could never take her on walks, couldn't let people into the house sometimes, and it was very hard to get her around other dogs. Anyways, next to all this, she never laid a finger on me. Came when i called, sat at my feet, let me touch her toes ears and face, clip her nails.

But for the first time when i started to use the prong collar she yelped and screamed and started biting at my shins and feet (not deep biting, more like a correction.) I was shocked and if my uncle hadn't shown me how to just power on through it i would have just cowed down and never done it again. And i was in no way afraid when this was happening, i just was totally suprised by this new behavior and had no idea what to do.
>> Anonymous
>>300672
Also, after that first part, we put her on choke collar, which i only needed for the first couple walks. The choke collar is somewhat embarassing to use because to anyone else it looks like you are hanging your dog. You use a choke collar similarly to the way use a prong, except instead of a short tug you pull up on the leesh so the front paws are just sort of dangling and you let them down when they settle. I'm not a fan of the choke and only use it in extreme cases.
>> Anonymous
>>300675
bah, also forgot. We don't use prong collars on small dogs like chihuahuas because its unnessesary. A regular collar, with the same correction method works pretty much the same. The corrections just have to be lighter and you have to wait for them to grow up a little bit. They're just to fragile when they're young.
>> tigerfeather !CrwtTbFNxQ
Oh man. Choke and prong collars are TRAINING collars, guys. They are not meant for walking, tie-outs, around the house wear, or anything like that.

Also,
> You use a choke collar similarly to the way use a prong, except instead of a short tug you pull up on the leesh so the front paws are just sort of dangling and you let them down when they settle.

What? WHAT? No. They are supposed to be used the same way that prongs are used: short, quick corrections, not long ones.

Oh, OP, did you know that using a reward-based training regimen is a significantly shorter training method than one that uses just physical correction? I'm not saying that a tug on the collar is a bad thing, and I understand the use of prong and chokes (usually only on dogs that don't respond to "nicer" training methods), but there are better ways to communicate with your dogs. Although your aunt and uncle may know what they're doing, keep in mind that in all fields of teaching and learning there are new concepts that are being developed. Please don't ever stop reading up on new techniques or styles. Not staying with the field around you is a poor business judgment. After all, you wouldn't want to go to a doctor or psychologist that has been using the exact same techniques for the past 25 years, right? =)
>> Anonymous
A headcollar does the same correction as a prong collar when fitted correctly, without the need for potentially dangerous metal peices constantly in place around the dog's neck.

There is no reason to use a prong collar any longer, now that head collars have been developed and proven to work. You might say "but the prong method has worked for me just fine; Why should I change?"

You have no idea how many times I've heard that, and raged. There is almost no difference in training -method- between headcollar and prong collar; The difference is the collar itself.

For those of you looking to train a pulling, lunging dog, look up the Gentle Leader and be at ease.
>> Anonymous
>>300675
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_collar#Slip_collars

You're an idiot. There's a reason they're referred to as choke collars. Enjoy your dog's asphyxiation.
>> Anonymous
>>300704
I'm not for solely physical correction based. I amply reward my dogs after walks and such with play time and petting. I'm aware that just using negative impulse to stimulate a response is not so useful. I also know that you can't just one style of training. Which i breifley mentioned. I was only giving a little bit of a tip for someone who might want some help with walking their dog. There are other methods, i have seen most of them. This one seems to me to be the most effective, although i think a mix of clicker training would make it go faster.

I am just starting out, and this is one of the first things i've been shown. Also, my entire post was about tips for training dogs to walk properly. not something you need to do forever. I thought i made that clear, i guess not.

I don't know what kind of dogs you've had to handle before, but the only time i've ever seen a choker needed to be brought out is in extreme cases where the dog is unable to have his attention broke by normal measures, is going off the handle, and has the neck to support it. I don't just go sticking chokers on dogs and the like. In fact, i'm not well trained enough to even make that call. I only used my own boxer as an extreme example of an adverse reaction to the change. The choker can be used exactly like a prong, but it also has other uses.

I think you need to take some of your own advice, as well as reading what i said a little more carefully. There are many training techniques, all of which go together better when used together. And it is likely most people don't know them all.
>> Anonymous
>>300745
Come talk to me when you have a maltreated pitbull biting and gnashing at every thing and unable to simply "tug" it back into submission. God, damn, i knew that story would bring up terrible responses. Did I not say that I had a professional trainer with me, or that there were specifics for how to use it, or that its only needed in extreme cases?
>> Anonymous
>>300712
I've never heard of the head collar. I'll look into and talk to my uncle. It sounds good.
>> Anonymous
>>300079
See
>>300760
Nose halter = head collar.
http://www.premier.com/View.aspx?page=dogs/products/collars/gentleleader/description
Has a video you can watch, too.