File :-(, x, )
Reef Jeb
So guys, I'm thinking of starting up a small saltwater rig. I have 5 freshwater tanks, with maybe 5 years experience, I do troll a ton of forums so I'm knowledgeable. The only thing that would keep me into freshwater would be a 120g+ gallon tank, and I don't have the room for that. I need something new. I did do a ton of reading saltwater tanks, so I do know a good amount, but I don't know how I should start. Should I go for a 12g-29gbiocube setup? Drill my own tank with a sump/ref? Will I be satisfied with fowlr? What would you guys do?
>> Anonymous
>>326679
ReefGeek here
If you are like me you will not be satisfied with a FOLR, you will want coral eventually. You will also not be satisfied with a nano/bio/aqua cube that gets filled up your second trip to the store. You are also paying lots of money for convenence in a sexy package.

My first reef was a 30g oceanic cube with a 250w metal halide over it. Awesome, if I was to do it again then...
Well first things first is budget. How much you got to wok with and ho much do you eventually want to put into it?
>> Anonymous
>>326682
to continue,

The perfect tanks are 40g breeders and 75g tanks, they are shallow and WIDE, look at 29g and 55g reef tanks, they are piles of rubble along the back wall. With the 18" versus the 13" you have a lot more aquascaping options and your tank will just look better. The shallowness for their size also means that lighting is relatively easy.

For the 40g breeder I would not sump it, just live rock and powerheads, use water changes to keep your nitrates down for a long time while you save up for a remora pro HOB skimmer (or you might upgrade before you need a skimmer).
Buy a 3 foot, 4 bulb coralife light, add corals, profit. For upper tier you can add a 4 bulb tek light t5, god tier MH not needed. This setup should grow 90% of corals available. If you go easy on the live rock but hard on the fish then use a HOB power filter until you get the remora pro.

75G = Sump, Aqua C Urchin skimmer, 4 foot 4 bulb coralife light or 4 foot 4 or 6 bulb tek light T5
>> Jeb
Ugh I'm not exactly sure of a budget, and I hate thinking how much this puppy could cost. I mean, I don't need a top of the line system, just something that I will be able to try some easier coral should I have success with fish and inverts. I'd say I'd spend a few hundred on initial setup, more as long as it's quality and worthwhile.

I was checking things out, here's what I'm considering.

300$
29 oceanic cube
Nice looking
Decent/good lighting
Decent filter
No thinking involved?
???

200$
12 Biocube
Pretty much the same as above?

Also, employee discount is 15% off these rigs...

Or I could drill my own tank, rig up a sump and refug, get pretty good lighting and go from their. Cheaper but more guesswork and time spent.

One of my main concerns was water... I'd rather not buy a 150$+ R/O device, so maybe keeping the tank small enough to use distilled water would be better...
Any insight ReefGeek?
>> Jeb
Hmm.. a 40 or 75.. They both seem large as I originally planned this to be a "desktop tank," you know, nothing too crazy. How would you say the price would increase if you went from a 20 to a 40?
>> Anonymous
>>326697continue
Or just buy whatever decent reef is in the local craigslist or newspaper classifieds for dirt cheap. I see 75g ref setups for $250 every month or so.

PS- if you buy the 75g order it drilled, it should cost like $30 extra or something like that.

For lighting you can also buy the canopy (expensive) and then retrofit in as much light as you want.

My ideal first small/cheap tank =
40g Breeder ~ $140
Fuck the short, cheap $200 stand, buy a nice, tall 3 foot piece of furnature for les = ~$150?
Live rock - This is hard, do you pay $7/lb at a store, but get to design and pick your perfect pieces or buy online for $3/lb and take what you get, up to you really, if your LFS has shit selection then just get it online.
Go through an EXTENDED curing process known as "cooking" your live rock, this leeches out all the built up organics in the rock, keeping your tank clear and running with less nutrients for a much longer amount of time, a month is great, ask for more info and I'll find my reefcentral link.
Anyway LR=$150-$300
Coralife 36 Inch Aqualight W/ 2-96W Sq. Pin Base And 2-3/4W Lunar Blue-Moon-Glow LED Lamps = $250
40lb bag of caribsea seafloor select = $45
Bag of salt = $20
2 Koralia 3s = $30 x 2

Done, add fish and coral, save money for a aqua c remora pro HOB skimer = $260

or go cheaper/smaller/shittier whatever, I've only been doing and selling this for years
>> Anonymous
>>326706
lol sorry, well those are both good options, and can grow most coral, I just see people fill them up really fast, worry about what they have room for etc...
I would go for the 29g, you might be disapointed in what you can put in a 12.
>> Anonymous
And your LFS should sell premixed RODI made saltwater for a little over a dollar, I did the distilled walmart water on my 30g and I swore never again, lugging 30 bottles of water up three flights of apartment stairs in Arkansas summer heat, fucking never the fuck again lol.

Sounds like you know what you want good sir, only thing left to do is get your feet wet.
Check on reefcentral.com selling forums and you local reefclub forums to see if you can get a decent deal on one. The good and bad thing about the nano/aqua/biocubes is that they retain a lot of resell value, so if it aint for you you should be able to unload it easily.
>> Jeb
>>326707
Ok, that doesn't seem too bad. What's you're advice on water? Worth it to install R/o? I gotta think about this, probably post back tomorrow. Thanks for the advice.
>> Anonymous
29 gal. Oceanic Bio Cube NIB $225.00 - eBay
wow, yeah no question I'd go with one of those lol
>> Jeb
>>326711
Ah, I hope they do. I'm laughing at the image of you lugging those jugs up your stairs.

So much trolling I will need to do on reefcentral to learn more about these systems. Thanks for the advice.
>> Anonymous
>>326716
Seems pretty good, although the shipping is most likely jacked up.
>> Anonymous
>>326712
eh for 10g water changes every other week or so probably not, just buy 2 5g jugs and get pre mixed or RODI from your LFS.

But when you factor in the possiblities it opens up in all your freshwater tanks then maybe.

Also check your tap water, around here it is like 30ppm TDS and 0 ammonia/trate/trites...aka pretty decent RODI water lol
>> Anonymous
>>326722
um, no. RODI should have a TDS as close to 0 as possible, 30 is shit and means your LFS is too fucking cheap to change their membrane.

Having used the coralife fixtures, they're pretty much shit (problems with fans, the endcaps tend to get brittle after a few months and break, ballasts burn out, etc). I'd go with the currentUSA fixtures for PCs, but really i'd go T5. no reason now not to go either T5 or halide as both are reasonable and allow you to keep a much greater range of corals than with PCs
>> Anonymous
OP - check out http://www.nano-reef.com/
>> Anonymous
>>326747
Yes 0 is ideal, and what mine and my LFS put out (700g a day of it if need be), but 10, 20, 30 is still insignificant. Breath on a sample of your RODI with a TDS meter and watch it climb. Every RODI meter I've used under $150 also has +/- of like 8 or 10ppm. 99% of users will experince no difference between 0ppm and 30ppm. Fact.

Current better than Coralife! If this was on Reef-Central they would call you a troll lol. How about Jebo, feels good man. Having delt with hundreds of Coralifes and dozens of Current orbit shit boxes ESU is the way to go. Currents are disposable, and they like it that way. ESU makes parts available and does a better job of backing their shit up. We buy back and resell coralifes all the time, currents you can not do anything with, cheap cheap. Fact.

Why not T5? The fixtures are more expensive and they do not come with bulbs, which adds at least $100 or more. We where trying to do quality but on the cheap. On a 40g, t5 are also moot, the PC will grow anything a noob would want. Metal halides, a 40g would take 2 150/175/250, shit ton of money and again, growing coral and clams a noob is not gonna grow, and add heat he is not gonna want to deal with on his first reef.

Name a coral in a 40g or 75g that metal halides will grow but PC won't. Acropora, crocea clam, maxima clam is debatable, carpet anemones (cuase those are sooo easy even with MH), done. And most acropora will grow, just not be nuclear, but he is not gonna skim/dose that tank enough to keep them nuclear anyway so it is moot.
>> Anonymous
Also, a tek light (already more expensive than coralife) does not put out significantly more light than similar wattage coralife fixtures. No idividual reflecters and no active cooling means not lighting to full potential of the T5s. You would have to spend huge bucks on fixtures with individual reflecters and then still buy the bulbs to get appriciably more light, then you still have the same considerations on what extra livestock you can now keep as with the MH.

Retrofitting is a whole other discussion but we can have it if you wish sir.
>> Anonymous
Can anyone recommend any sites where I could check out this lighting? I've been on bigals and drfostersmith...
>> Anonymous
Hey OP, not sure if you're still around, but I've been researching setting up a small 5.5g nano tank setup myself. I've been wondering what to do about the sump/ref problem (I'm a newbie to saltwater tanks as well) and was looking around the 'net because I didn't want to drill and plumb my own, and found this: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=601201

It's a tutorial on how to turn a AC70 filter into a refugium.

For someone just starting on a SW tank I'd recommend some PC lighting. Something like this -- http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+9654+13733&pcatid=13733
You won't be able to keep anemones in a small tank if I remember right, so I wouldn't worry about metal halide. You could easily keep a few easy corals, like zoanthids, mushrooms and pulsing xenia with PC lights. I would save getting metal halide for when you purchase a larger tank where it's more possible to have an array of different, harder to keep corals, and when you have more experience.
>> Anonymous
It would be hilarious if a mantis shrimp wound up in your tank.
>> Anonymous
>>326940
Which is why you don't buy uncured LR unless you know what you're doing... I love hearing stories about rampant mantises in people's tanks that hitched a ride on the LR they got, some people just kill the whole tank and start over with new rocks.
>> Anonymous
OP here. I'm watching this thread pretty closely.
>>326936

Thanks, that seems much easier and less riskier than drilling for your own sump, but still providing functionality. I have a feeling I'd build a real sump wrong and flood something... I will definitely look into it.
>>326707
I do thank you for your recommendation for lighting, I know you want to see me do well, but is there anything a bit less? I would like to keep lighting under 150$-200$. I would just like something that would grow beginner corals well.

I'm a bit overwhelmed when it comes to lighting. For a 40 breeder, about how much watts would suffice getting PC, T5HO or MH? Anything in particular that would be the best value?

Thanks.
>> Anonymous
     File :-(, x)
>>326967
Good sir, I think I jumped in too deep and too expensive, the 29g oceanic cube will do everything you want while allowing simple maintaince. There is a reason the all-in-one cubes are so popular. Just get it and forget all this other stuff and laugh at people when the power goes off and their sump overflows.

What you can keep
SPS - yes, many
Softies - yes
LPS - yes
Some clams - yes
LTA or BTA anemone - yes
room for a pair of clowns and a pygmy angel and a shrimp/goby pair and a few other small fish -yes

you know what you want
>> Anonymous
So what is the best for the money all-in-one tank in 20-29g range for a nube? JBJ? Biocube? Aquapod? Finnex?
>> Jeb
OP Here

>>327023
So you think something like the 29 cube isn't too much of a ripoff? Do you think it's worth it to skip the research and guesswork involving picking lighting and filtering myself?

Ok so here's a very tentative list of supplies if I did go for the cube.

-29 Oceanic Cube, possibly refugium modded
-30-40 lbs sand, worth it to get packaged "live" sand?
-Test kit
-Water, distilled or lfs water
-Maybe salt
-Salinity tester, idk what its called
-30#+ Rock, can I go half live, half base?
-Need a powerhead, skimmer, uv?
-livestock

Anything I'm missing?

Thanks.
>> Anonymous
>>327067
Don't forget to pick up mineral/vitamin supplements or whatever. I don't have a saltwater tank, but I hear a lot about needing to put additional additives into the water so your corals don't shrivel up. Research this and see if you really need them/what kind you need.

You are going to get a 29g, correct? I think you need a skimmer, make sure you pay for a nice one--do NOT skimp out for the cheaper one, you will regret it. You might want a powerhead for additional flow, because most of your nitrifying bacteria is in your sand/rock, although I don't know what kind of stuff a cube comes with (might already have a skimmer/powerhead).
>> Anonymous
     File :-(, x)
>>327067
not for $260 new probably, plus it is sexy and you like it, remember that is what the light I recommended earlier cost lol. If you get something else you will probably always regret it and enough people on 4chan want me to die already :...(
Possible mods I've seen done: Squeeze a 150W or 70W double ended metal halide in there, should cost you $160 or less.
Add a sexy skimmer:
http://www.petsolutions.com/SR3-Protein-Skimmer-for-Oceanic-BioCube+I46307581+C43.aspx
There are others too, not sure on the effectivness of them though, ideally you want a direct injection like shown. Fisson/Fusion whatevers are worthless.
Things do certainly do: Take out the bioballs, with LR they are worthless and just trap organics. Maybe widen the hole between the chambers for more flow.

The skimmer and MH can come later or not at all, water changes should keep you in the clear pretty easily.

Live sand is a waste of money, your LR will make all your sand live very quickly, though it usually is not much more expensive and if it comes in a more convenint size or you have to drive 10 miles to get a different kind or buy more than you need then it becomes moot. We sell normal araganite sand for $1 a pound for all the nano peeps. 30lbs should be plenty, 20lbs would probably be just fine even maybe, a DSB is moot in small tanks.

It is called a hydrometer or refractometer depending on how much you want to spend and how accurate you want to be. $14 versus $60 usually. Hydrometers usually read a few points high, we "calibrate" all our customers' hydrometers with our refractometer and put a mark where 1.023 really is, usually at the 1.026 mark on the hydrometer, not a big deal for most critters.

I would NOT buy 30lbs all at once, bit hit in the wallet and you always miss out on that awesome piece you want later. Not to mention all your corals usually come on a piece of rock too, you can fill it up quick.
>> Anonymous
     File :-(, x)
If you found some nice light branchy/shelfy LR you could do it with 20lbs or less even, remember you don't really want a stagnant rubble pile against the back of your tank, aquascape, make it flowy/swimmy, think about where you are going to put your corals, find example on reefcentral or nano-reef to get ideas.
And yes 2lbs of LR will slowly make dead rock live, again I would do an extended curing cycle in the dark to remove excess detritus.
A koralia 1 or a nano would be nice stuck to the back glass for more flow, most reefers do this.
A small magfloat will save your sanity if you don't already have one for your other tanks.

Don't worry about additives until you start putting in corals, hell I wouldn't even worry about additives with soft corals if you are doing regular water changes.
>> Jeb
     File :-(, x)
Well it sounds good so far, pals. I still have to research a ton, so there's no point in asking specific questions now. But. If I were to get a cube other than the 29 oceanic, what type of lighting should I look for? Is there the watts per gallon rule I could follow? Thanks.

pic unrelated.
>> Anonymous
>>327125

Your lighting needs will be highly dependent on what kind of livestock you keep in your tank. If you want to keep corals or plants then your lighting needs will be very different than a fish-only tank.

Something else to consider is that smaller tanks, especially "nano" tanks, are more difficult to maintain the proper water chemistry in. Becasue the volume of water is so small, even the slightest change in something--a dead fish, algae bloom, bacteria growth--can make the chemistry go off very quickly. A larger tank is more forgiving because changes will happen much more slowly, giving you time to react and fix whatever problem there might be. You may want to consider getting the largest tank you can fit and afford simply becasue it will be easier to take care of.
>> Anonymous
>>326840
we've got a 650 g/d unit at the store I work at, our customers would be pissed as hell if they took our RO home and tested it at 30.

I've always had a higher resell on currents than coralife.

personally I've seen too many problems with fans and ballasts on both customer and personal coralife fixtures that I stay as far away from them as possible.

I never recommended MHs, but T5s are seriously worth the investment. better par (better growth), looks nicer, bulbs are cheaper to replace than PCs. I've also never sold a fixture that didn't have bulbs, hell even most of the ATI fixtures come with bulbs for only about $60 more.

and whats the point of keeping shit alive with PCs if they look like fucking shit, hell if wants to do that he can just throw a shit ton of cheap 6700k bulbs on there, things will grow like weeds if you like brown fucking sticks.
>> Anonymous
>>327114
the tunzes are some of the best skimmers I've found that fit inside the biocubes
>> Anonymous
>>327187
Well I had a brutally long detailed post where I raped you ass on every sentance you typed and then wiped my bloody, shit covered cock on your mom's face, but a control-c error means you get the short version now, since you must be a troll it doesnt matter anyway.

>>I never recommended MHs
Holy shit, wow. So your store only sells Current products and T5s. What a sad little hole in a strip-mall store you must work at. There are a million instances where MH are prefered or needed.

Also T5 fixtures plus bulbs are a fuck ton more expensive than comparable wattage PCs, granted t5s have more PAR but you lose hundreds of watts but have to pay hundreds more. Not entry level as we were talking about.
>> Anonymous
>>327352
RECOMENDED, not recomend. as in, I never recomended MHs for OP. trying some fucking reading comprehension you dumbass
>> Anonymous
>>327352
Coralife 36" dual 96w is 225 on marinedepot
Current USA 36" quad 39w t5 is 199 (you can get it cheaper on other sites like reefgeek, drsfoster/smith)
I agree with you here though, I'm not a particular fan of the current t5 fixtures (had LOTS of t5 ballast issues)just never had a problem with their PC fixtures, but since we are doing on the cheap over a hypothetical 40g you can do t5s for cheaper.
now going with a nicer tek fixure will run you about 340 with bulbs, but even the Current will look a hell of a lot nicer than the coralife PCs, he'd see better growth and color too, it would be pretty much the same to replace bulbs cost wise as PCs.

so in summation, fuck off